Thursday, November 02, 2006
The Jehovah's Witness Return Visit
It is Thursday, November 2nd. The mail has been delivered. I got alot of campaign flyers, grocery store ads, catalogs, and Home Depot ads..........guess what did NOT come in the mail today.............my absentee ballot. So there you have it.......I am denied my vote unless I cancel my vacation. So much for planning ahead, eh?
There is a slight possibility that the ballot arrives on Friday, Saturday, or Monday, but that will be too late for me. The election is on Tuesday.
The Jehovah's Witness woman that I wrote about previously, actually showed up at my door again today, this time with an elder (as I suggested she do). This time, she hardly uttered a word and left all of the talking to me and the elder. She was basically there to provide smiles and head nodding towards the elder whenever he tried to respond to me. The whole exchange lasted about 15, maybe 20 minutes. Right off the bat, the elder whipped out some very small paperback, yellowish book and opened it to a specific page with a list of items. He wanted to show me "how to identify the true religion". Hehehe........needless to say, this made my day.
He never got past the first two items on his list. He read the first one on the list....something about the "name" of God, and he proceeded to attempt to offer up his spiel about "Jehovah" and I stopped him about seven words into it and I said "Oh that's a good one.....who's witnesses are you?" He said "Jehovah".
I said "Okay, does Jesus have any?"
He tried to say that they are, but I interrupted him again.
I said "Didn't Jesus state rather plainly that "ye are to be MY witnesses"?"
He tried to say , "Yes...but we are witnesses of Jehovah THROUGH Jesus"
I said : "It just doesn't say that in the bible, does it?"
He smiled and jumped to the next item on his list. This was a good one....."True religion is not involved in governments and politics".
I said "What would you say if I could show you that you have been involved with government and politics?"
He said "If a Witness is, he is probably not in good standing......."
I interrupted him again and said "oh...not just one Witness......I am talking about the Watchtower Society itself"
He said he would not believe it.
I said, "what if I show you proof?"
He tried to suggest that it was probably something in the past, but I told him that I am talking about things that are currently done. He smiled some more and started to read the third item on the list and I stopped him. I told him there was no sense in continuing reading that list until he resolved the first two items. The conversation completely changed and he began his attacks on other religious groups, particularly the Catholic Church regarding the cover up and condoning of priests molesting boys. I was fully expecting this line of conversation and I stopped him and said "Isn't this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?"
He said "No".
I asked him if he knew about Russell Cano, the Bethelite who had recently been arrested and convicted by authorities for attempting to lure boys at airports.
The elder said "Yes.....and this is different because we remove the perpetrators from the congregation, unlike the Catholic Church who would shift him to some other location and cover it up".
I said "He was at your headquarters for 15 years"
He said "and when we find out about anyone like that, we remove him".
So I asked him "Isn't it true that the official policy is to not notify the authorities UNLESS required by law to do so?"
He looked a bit stunned and said "No".
I then asked him if he knew who JR Brown was. JR Brown is the official spokesperson for the Watchtower Society.
He said "Yes....I have met him".
I said "OK, he is a very polite and nice man......very helpful and generally has no problem with facts."
The elder said "Yes."
I said "I have spoken with him myself"
The elder had a curious look about him at that point.
I said "Even JR Brown acknowledges that the official policy towards pedophiles in the congregation is that when they are aware of such individuals in their midst, the policy is not to notify police authorities."..."Now how can you say that your organization is any different than those you criticize in your publications?"
He said "The Catholic Church has had to pay out millions of dollars because of the priests..."
I said "They sure have, by any chance do you know how much the Watchtower has had to pay out?"
He said "The Catholic Church has had a large number of pedophiles......"
I interrupted with "Of course they have, considering there are over a billion Catholics on the planet...and your group is at best 6.5 million members.....percentage wise, there isn't much of a difference is there?"
The elder then said "But you don't hear about us all over the news....you hear about the Catholics".
I laughed and said "Oh come on now.....surely you must realize that television and newspapers are in business and look to get the attention of a larger pecentage of people. Obviously there are more Catholics than any others, so naturally they are gonna run the story". I told him, "Even though that is the case, the media STILL has had stories regarding pedophile Jehovah's Witnesses, and apparently it is a big problem."
He said "I know there was one report on Dateline a couple of years back".
I said "Oh there has been alot more than that around the world.......don't you keep up with the news?"
He said " Yes, but those are isolated incidents and we remove....."
I said, "Maybe now you do"
The elder said "We always remove them...."
I interrupted again and said "I guess what you don't know doesn't hurt you......ever hear that?" He said "Yes".
For some reason, the elder brought up the Holocaust by saying that they had just recently visited the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.
He said "It was very revealing and interesting to see that our people were included in the displays."
I asked him how much he knew about the Holocaust Museum.
He said "Are you one of those that deny...."
I said "Not at all........do you know that the museum is not a government entity?....That those displays are funded by various organizations, one of which just so happens to be the Watchtower Society?"
He said "I don't know about that"
I said "You should always know the sources of information"
He smiled and said "It was very interesting"
I smiled and said "I know, I am sure it was"
He said "Did you know that the false religions such as the Catholic Church were friendly towards Hitler?"
I said.."Even your own leader Joseph "Judge" Rutherford made attempts to befriend Hitler, did you know that?"
He looked at me and said "I would doubt that"
I said "I am sure you would and I bet that you didn't see the Declaration of Facts 1931 book on display at the Holocaust Museum, did ya?" "You might want to check into that yourself"
He started saying something about a "proclaimer's book".....
I said "Forget that book and look directly at the original Declaration. In it you will find that Rutherford told Hitler that they both shared a common enemy, the United States and Great Britain"
He obviously did not know how to respond to that one and he just smiled.
I looked at the woman and she was still smiling and nodding her head.
So I figured I would see if I could get the witnesses to whip out a bible.
I asked "Who is the Truth?"
They both looked at me and the elder said "The Truth?"
I said "Yes....WHO is the Truth?"
He said "the true religion?"
I said "No, what does the bible say about this?"
He said "There is much about the truth in the bible"
I said "That's nice, but WHO is the Truth according to the bible?"
Finally, he said "Jesus is the Way, The Truth and........."
I said "That is correct! Jesus is the Truth, he said it hisself didn't he?"
He said "Yes he did"
I said, "He wouldn't lie about that would he?"
He said "No, Jesus would not lie"
I said, "That's good, we agree...Jesus does not lie"
He said "Do you know what Jesus meant when he said "I and the Father are one?"
I said "Sure, and he wasn't lying about that either, was he?"
He said "No.......Jesus meant that he was united with the father, same as you are united with your family"
I said "Oh really?.......you have verses in the bible that says Jesus "really meant this...or Jesus meant that when he said this"??
He said "No"
I said "Then that is just speculation on your part, isn't it?"
He said "No"
I said "Sure it is...to suggest that Jesus "meant" something other that what he said very plainly and directly...is very questionable....it is speculation, no doubt about it."
He said "You seem to be very familiar with the bible"
I said "I have read it, yes"
He said "You would understand it if you had a bible study, that way you could start from the beginning and see what I am explaining"
I laughed and said "See right there?....You are wanting to tell me that I cannot understand the bible without explanations for it......I believe the bible is sufficient, don't you?"
He said "Yes....but"
I said "I have read the bible, and I know what it says."
He said "See this is where the problem is.....you do not want to study the bible..."
I interrupted him again by saying "I am fully aware of the long process of indoctrination.....I know it takes alot of time to make people believe things that are not written there"
He looked a bit stunned and said "We show people how to understand.."
I said "Let's cut to the chase here, okay?"
He looked at his watch and said "We do have other appointments"
I said " I am sure you do"
I said "Before you go, Is Jesus the fallen angel of the abyss?"
He said "Fallen angel?.....No.......No......that would be Satan or his angels"
I said "Are you sure about that?"
He said "You aren't trying to say that Jesus is........"
I said "No, I merely asked you if Jesus is a fallen angel"
He said "No he is not"
The woman was very interested in this exchange and was looking back and forth at me and the elder. She shook her head back and forth.
I said "You are an elder, correct?"
He said "Yes, and I have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for over 40 years"
I said "That's excellent, then you know full well that you believe that Jesus is the fallen angel of the abyss, isn't that correct?"
The woman was shaking her head no in a stronger fashion at this point.
The elder said "You must have this confused.....maybe we can come back with a book we have called "Revelation" "
I said "Revelation, Its Grand Climax Is At Hand, eh"?
He said "Oh, you have that book?"
I said "No, but I have read it"
He said "Maybe we can go over it next time"
I said "Back to the question.......You believe Jesus is a fallen angel, correct?"
He said "Why are you asking this?"
I said "In Revelation 9......there is a star that had fallen from heaven to earth and this is the angel of the abyss and his name is Abaddon, correct?"
He said "Oh I see now....you think that fallen is a bad thing"
I said "The last time I fell, it wasn't good"
He said "I would have to explain......."
I said "Why?, I have a Strongs Concordance....the word for fell is "pipto""
He said "I would need to have my Hebrew reference with me and I could go over it"
I said "Hebrew?........we are talking New Testament here....Revelation is New Testatment......Greek......a Strongs should suffice"
He said "We could use that yes"
I said, "back to the question....Is Jesus the fallen angel of the abyss, yes or no"
He said "I would have to explain this and it would be a long discussion" and he laughed.
I laughed too.....I said "Indeed....a very long discussion.....I would ask you what is in the abyss?"
He said "Satan"
I said "That's much later in Revelation isn't it?.....I mean, In Rev 9, there are locusts in the abyss, correct?"
He said "Yes"
I said "Who are the locusts?"
He said "There are alot of frogs in the bible too"
I said, "I don't care about the frogs, they aint in the abyss"
I said "Why would something be locked up in the pit of the abyss?"
He said "because they are evil"
I said "That is correct"
I said, "I realize that you want to go now, if you come back in a week or two, you can explain to me how it was that some members of your governing body were the locusts locked up in the abyss in Rev 9!" I looked at the woman and smiled and said "Remember what he said......if its locked up in the abyss it is evil!"
I am sure I have left out some stuff that was said about my witness relatives and the internet witnesses....which by the way.......the elder said "You cannot trust what you read on the internet"......I, of course, reminded him that the Watchtower Society operates TWO websites on the internet. Before getting back in the car, they smiled and said they would come back when they have more time.......the elder said "You probably won't be here will you?"
I said "I am pretty much always here unless I am laying on a beach in the Dominican...I will be here.
There is more that I want to include about our discussion......in particular, more about the pedophiles and being involved in government and politics.....maybe when I get back from vacation.
I shall return on November 11th.